Comments on: Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/ Sourcing & Trading Intelligence for Global Metals Markets Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:39:20 +0100 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Twitter Trackbacks for Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts [agmetalminer.com] on Topsy.com http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16363 Twitter Trackbacks for Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts [agmetalminer.com] on Topsy.com Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:02:40 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16363 [...] Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts – view page – cached Join us at the Managing Supply Chain Risks for Critical & Strategic Metals Summit Oct 20-22, 2009! * Service Offerings + Our Services + Test Your Sourcing Strategies * Archives [Select Month..] * Categories [Select Category..........] — From the page [...] [...] Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts – view page – cached Join us at the Managing Supply Chain Risks for Critical & Strategic Metals Summit Oct 20-22, 2009! * Service Offerings + Our Services + Test Your Sourcing Strategies * Archives [Select Month..] * Categories [Select Category..........] — From the page [...]

]]> By: Ian Falconer http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16340 Ian Falconer Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:51:13 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16340 And John has hit the proverbial nail on the head. Hydrogen allows the current oil majors to preserve their business models. There is no real-world hydrogen price right now, but I'm willing to bet that full-cycle margins on a 'gallon of hydrogen' would be similar to a gallon of gasoline. I'm not sure that I agree that the technology doesn't work, the question for me is whether it is a step forward in terms of performance in the full life cycle when you include all the infrastructure needed to produce the H2. To me it looks likely that H2 production will be linked to advanced, high temp coal combustion and CCS, since electrolysis is currently ruled out on the basis that the asbestos membranes needed to withstand industrial scale temperatures are now illegal in the EU. So, given that you're currently looking at platinum mining and coal, I'm also not sure that its non-polluting in full life cycle. Yes, it spits out drinking water at the tail pipe, but we can see past that can't we ? I think that what Chu is looking at is getting to non-metallic membranes/SOFCs, maybe carbon nano-tubes or graphene as the membrane. That would get rid of the need for platinum. Couple that with algal biofuels as a feedstock and you get somewhere close to what H2 fuel cells said they would be. The question is why would you bother ? If you can do the tings listed above, you could almost certainly run the fuel cell directly on biofuels with no need to 'distill' it to pure H2. The current fuel cells are, in the same way as the Prius, a stepping stone both in psychological and technological terms. A bit 'Model T' to begin with but eventually you get to the McLaren F1. And John has hit the proverbial nail on the head. Hydrogen allows the current oil majors to preserve their business models. There is no real-world hydrogen price right now, but I’m willing to bet that full-cycle margins on a ‘gallon of hydrogen’ would be similar to a gallon of gasoline.

I’m not sure that I agree that the technology doesn’t work, the question for me is whether it is a step forward in terms of performance in the full life cycle when you include all the infrastructure needed to produce the H2.

To me it looks likely that H2 production will be linked to advanced, high temp coal combustion and CCS, since electrolysis is currently ruled out on the basis that the asbestos membranes needed to withstand industrial scale temperatures are now illegal in the EU.

So, given that you’re currently looking at platinum mining and coal, I’m also not sure that its non-polluting in full life cycle. Yes, it spits out drinking water at the tail pipe, but we can see past that can’t we ?

I think that what Chu is looking at is getting to non-metallic membranes/SOFCs, maybe carbon nano-tubes or graphene as the membrane. That would get rid of the need for platinum. Couple that with algal biofuels as a feedstock and you get somewhere close to what H2 fuel cells said they would be. The question is why would you bother ?

If you can do the tings listed above, you could almost certainly run the fuel cell directly on biofuels with no need to ‘distill’ it to pure H2.

The current fuel cells are, in the same way as the Prius, a stepping stone both in psychological and technological terms. A bit ‘Model T’ to begin with but eventually you get to the McLaren F1.

]]> By: John http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16337 John Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:21:11 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16337 Give it up Greg, all your postings won't make hydrogen work, as much as you may want it. Intelligent people realize it's an inefficient means of storing electricity, and no one wants to be tied to oil companies once again, even if they are now pushing hydrogen. Give it up Greg, all your postings won’t make hydrogen work, as much as you may want it. Intelligent people realize it’s an inefficient means of storing electricity, and no one wants to be tied to oil companies once again, even if they are now pushing hydrogen.

]]> By: ForU2Know.Com Other Resources › Posts about Cars as of August 28, 2009 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16330 ForU2Know.Com Other Resources › Posts about Cars as of August 28, 2009 Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:05:01 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16330 [...] [...] [...] [...]

]]> By: Greg Blencoe http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16327 Greg Blencoe Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:38:14 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16327 Toyota is actually the leader in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. See all of their progress in the following article. 7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles Here are 7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (which the company started developing in-house back in 1992 when I was a senior in high school): 1. 431-mile real-world driving range with Toyota FCHV-adv (mid-size SUV) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (See YouTube video below) 2. 68.3 real-world miles per kilogram fuel economy with Toyota FCHV-adv (See YouTube video below) 3. Ability to operate in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 30 degrees Celsius) 4. Irv Miller, TMS group vice president, environmental and public affairs, made the following comment on August 6th: In 2015, our plan is to bring to market a reliable and durable fuel cell vehicle with exceptional fuel economy and zero emissions, at an affordable price. 5. Masatami Takimoto, a Toyota executive vice president and board member, made the following comment in January at the North American International Auto Show: By 2015, we will have a full-fledged commercialization effort. 6. The Toyota FCHV-adv (Highlander) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has the same trunk and passenger space as the gasoline-powered version. Click on the following link to see a picture of the trunk in the Toyota FCHV-adv hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. 7. Here is a comment made by Justin Ward, advanced powertrain program manager-Toyota Technical Center, in a Ward's Automotive article (subscription required) that was published on July 16th: We have some confidence the vehicle released around 2015 is going to have costs that are going to be shocking for most of the people in the industry. They are going to be very surprised we were able to achieve such an impressive cost reduction. http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/7-reasons-to-love-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/ Greg Blencoe Chief Executive Officer Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc. "Hydrogen Car Revolution" blog Toyota is actually the leader in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. See all of their progress in the following article.

7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles

Here are 7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (which the company started developing in-house back in 1992 when I was a senior in high school):

1. 431-mile real-world driving range with Toyota FCHV-adv (mid-size SUV) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (See YouTube video below)

2. 68.3 real-world miles per kilogram fuel economy with Toyota FCHV-adv (See YouTube video below)

3. Ability to operate in temperatures as low as minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 30 degrees Celsius)

4. Irv Miller, TMS group vice president, environmental and public affairs, made the following comment on August 6th:

In 2015, our plan is to bring to market a reliable and durable fuel cell vehicle with exceptional fuel economy and zero emissions, at an affordable price.

5. Masatami Takimoto, a Toyota executive vice president and board member, made the following comment in January at the North American International Auto Show:

By 2015, we will have a full-fledged commercialization effort.

6. The Toyota FCHV-adv (Highlander) hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has the same trunk and passenger space as the gasoline-powered version.

Click on the following link to see a picture of the trunk in the Toyota FCHV-adv hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

7. Here is a comment made by Justin Ward, advanced powertrain program manager-Toyota Technical Center, in a Ward’s Automotive article (subscription required) that was published on July 16th:

We have some confidence the vehicle released around 2015 is going to have costs that are going to be shocking for most of the people in the industry. They are going to be very surprised we were able to achieve such an impressive cost reduction.

http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/7-reasons-to-love-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/

Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
“Hydrogen Car Revolution” blog

]]> By: Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts | Honda dealer live today http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16250 Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts | Honda dealer live today Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:40:45 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16250 [...] The another is the profession currently relies on momentous quantities of … More:  Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts Posted in Technology, Uncategorized | Tags: are-about, clarity, far-there, general, [...] [...] The another is the profession currently relies on momentous quantities of … More:  Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts Posted in Technology, Uncategorized | Tags: are-about, clarity, far-there, general, [...]

]]> By: Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts « Honda http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16247 Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts « Honda Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:15:46 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16247 [...] Here is the original post: Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts [...] [...] Here is the original post: Honda and GM Persevere with Fuel Cell Technology Despite Funding Cuts [...]

]]> By: Twitted by TeslaEV http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/comment-page-1/#comment-16229 Twitted by TeslaEV Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:29:42 +0000 http://agmetalminer.com/2009/08/27/honda-and-gm-persevere-with-fuel-cell-technology-inspite-of-funding-cuts/#comment-16229 [...] This post was Twitted by TeslaEV [...] [...] This post was Twitted by TeslaEV [...]

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